Alkaline Water, pH Balance and Cancer: A Discussion.

Learn how the alkaline and H2 water professionals think about cancer and water.

We are neither qualified – nor authorized – to discuss the relationship between any product we supply and cancer – and, we may add, rightly so.

[dropcap]O[/dropcap]ver the 15 years of learning here at AlkaWay we have  wanted so much to provide answers to the many thousands of people we have spoken with on the subject of alkalizing and cancer.

In the field of cancer, we understand that you may have  heard claims from water ionizer salesmen like ‘Cancer cannot survive in an alkaline body’.
These come from an early stage need to supply answers, and not from any mature of viewpoint.

Cancer is a massive subject. Every cancer has a different modus operandi. It cannot be jammed into any one idea.

That being said, I participated in an excellent thread on the subject on a closed Facebook group consisting of scientists, doctors, natural therapists and water ionizer vendors. I have editing it for length but there is ‘gold’ in the content if you have the time to read.

Tyler LeBaron is the founder and principal of the Molecular Hydrogen Foundation.
Dr. Peggy Parker is a highly experienced specialist in biological medicine.


canceralkalineTYLER LE BARON, BIOCHEMISTTyler LeBaron MHF Yes, it’s crazy that it was known that over a 100 years ago that many cancer patients are alkaline. But still somehow the notion of all cancer people are ‘acidic’ started…..truly amazing!

Peggy Parker Tyler, this is only in some types of cancer. Each cancer and each tissue is pH specific. Any time we go outside the norms of those pH requirements for well functioning and healthy tissues, we set the stage for all types of ailments including cancer. Some cancer cells are created via too acidic terrain, others via too alkaline terrain. From my research any cell outside the appropriate pH range is that way due to excessive oxidation which prevents adequate uptake of key vitamins, minerals and even proper hydration, which will always effect the pH.

Tyler LeBaron  Please note, that I nor the article said that “ALL” cancers are from too much alkaline…I have specifically stated on numerous occasions that it can be either way.

Peggy Parker It seems that most people are looking for a simplistic answer to a very complicated health issue. Eat this food or take this supplement or drink this water or even get more hydrogen in an effort to “solve” the cancer/diabetes/ALS/MS/etc health problems.

They are ALWAYS more complicated than that, require individualized plans and must include a return to homeostasis no matter what the problem.

Tyler LeBaron  Yes absolutely! Thus the purpose of my post was to help show that it can go either way. Thanks for helping people realize this fact.

canceralkaline2Tyler LeBaron For those interested, that article is from 1977 from the Journal of European Cancer. Here is another interesting quote.

Peggy Parker
The one thing to keep in mind is that depending upon the point of view of the researchers, there is often one research project that is in direct opposition to another.

BR This is why I have problems listening to distributors who say “Disease CANNOT live in an alkaline body” before saying “Will you be paying cash or financing it”? ( lol)

Tyler LeBaron  Peggy, although that might be true for certain things, that isn’t the case with basic things like measuring the pH of the blood of cancer patients….that is just a measurement. It’s not a statistical evaluation of subjective parameters.

WN:  BR, disease cannot live in a homeostatic environment, which requires a precise acid/alkaline balance.

Peggy Parker Tyler if those parameters are irrefutable, then the research and treatment of Dr. Sircus would be invalid as would the way that many natural practitioners successfully treat cancer. You probably know that pH findings are influenced by many things. I never consider one test viable without a 12 hour fast.

GD  Alkalosis might be the cause of cancer as acidosis might too. The key is to maintain balance. As emotions creates acidity in the body its sometimes hard to keep it even unless you’re vegan (and even). So to me, intuitively this is true but not so true.  And that’s why not all people need 9.5 I’m guessing.

Peggy Parker  BTW – when I joined the company DJ is referring to, I was told there were 650 doctors in Japan who were using ERW – now all of the sudden it’s 6500. This is the kind of thing that I have watched happen repeatedly through the years. It’s also the reason that many of us here are dedicated to dispelling rumors, half-truths and myths.

RS Tyler LeBaron  is eminently qualified to teach about hydrogen water. He is  a research scientist, and he communicates on a regular basis with leading scientists on the subject of hydrogen water. So many of us in this group have benefited from his teaching and perspective on the water. Since joining this group, we have all had to “unlearn” at least a few incorrect things taught to us by well-meaning but misinformed people, and the re-learning process can be confusing and disconcerting. But the end result is a distributor better prepared to represent the product.

Peggy Parker
One of my biggest pet peeves is the continued mis-quoting of Dr. Warburg’s work. I have yet to see an accurate quote by anyone in the electrolysed water field. And I have been around since 2005 and have a document that says 650. Now that was either a misprint or the numbers have been exaggerated in the game of “telephone” that I see happening with regularity.

RS Otto Warburg is a great example of something Tyler LeBaron  has helped us to understand. Warburg actually showed that cancer survives just fine in the presence of oxygen. The whole point of the “Warburg Effect” is that cancer utilizes anaerobic glycolysis even when oxygen is available!

Tyler LeBaron Otto Warburg did do some cancer research and did make the simple observation that once a cell becomes cancerous it relies upon glycolysis for its energy resulting in a lower pH, but he did not receive the noble prize for proving that cancer can’t survive with adequate oxygen. In fact, his work shows that cancer thrives just as well in an oxygenated environment as it does under hypoxic/anaerobic conditions. In 1931 Otto received the noble prize for his “discovery of the nature and mode of action of the respiratory enzyme” now known as cytochrome oxidase which transfers electrons to oxygen forming water during aerobic metabolism. In 1944 he was nominated for a second Nobel prize for his discovery and work on flavoproteins used for dehydrogenation reactions with their coenzymes.

References:
http://www.nature.com/…/v11/n5/execsumm/nrc3038.html
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/…/npg.els…/abstract…
http://xa.yimg.com/…/cellular%20respiration%20and…
http://www.nobelprize.org/…/laureates/1931/warburg.html

SO Tyler , thanks for the article. I feel we are making lots of progress. Do we have a breakdown of which cancers or alkaline and which or acidic?

Tyler LeBaron So again, Dr. Otto Warburg was an extremely intelligent man who made ground breaking discoveries—however, the idea that he received the Nobel Prize for “proving that acidity is the root cause of all cancer and that cancer can’t exist if the presence of oxygen” is totally inaccurate, in fact his research “proved” that cancer survives in an oxygenated environment just as well as it does in oxygen poor environment.

However, to a certain extent a low pH may increase mitotic cancer progression, and a hypoxic environment may increase the expression of vascular endothelial growth factor needed for tumor angiogenesis (VEGF). However, if the pH decreases too low than the glycolytic enzymes used for energy production of the cancer cell cease to function and the cancer will starve to death—and so will you of course.

Hydrogen water can decrease the amount of free radicals, which helps bring the cell back into redox homeostasis, which in turn down-regulates the expression of VEGF thus inhibiting tumor angiogenesis.

(see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18175936)
Inhibitory effect of electrolyzed reduced wa… [Biol Pharm Bull. 2008] – PubMed – NCBI
PubMed comprises more than 23 million citations for biomedical literature from MEDLINE, life science journals, and online books. Citations may include links to full-text content from PubMed Central and publisher web sites.
NCBI.NLM.NIH.GOV|BY YE J , ET AL.

Peggy Parker To make this really simple, Warburg made an observation that cancer cells produce fuel differently. In a healthy cell ATP is produced in the mitochondria by burning carbohydrates using oxygen. However, cancer cells essentially ferment the carbohydrates to produce ATP and this does not require oxygen.

Tyler LeBaron SO,  I wish it were that simple, but like Peggy said above, each person requires individualized plans and must include a return to homeostasis no matter what the problem.

RS: Peggy Parker and to make it even more perplexing, cancer chooses the less-efficient method of ATP production, fermentation over the more efficient cellular respiration.

DM So Tyler are saying that two people can have the same cancer but one could be acidic and the other alkaline?

Tyler LeBaron  DM, I am not sure…but that is the way I believe it to be…everybody is unique and so they may respond differently to the same cancer.

Peggy Parker  I think the pH is specific to the type of cancer. But you must remember that cancers can metastasize and liver cancer can begin growing in another organ or tissue, and that may alter the pH.

AA  I have a question. (not backing either side of this “DEBATE” by the way) here it is- 100 year is a long time…our environment appears to me (my opinion coming up) to be more toxic than 100 years ago (water , air , man- made toxic chemicals etc)..
I believe about 34,000 cancer deaths a year are attributed to the environment (I dont have the reference to this number handy so im sure it can be disputed).
Is it possible /plausible that more cancer patients “TODAY” ARE acidic versus alkaline Let’s take into account people werent eating Twinkies and lunchables 100 years ago and any food like that isn’t creating alkalinity in anyone’s body. Lets not forget Mickey D and Burger King didn’t arrive until 1955 or so!

Tyler LeBaron AA that is a good point that you brought up. From the recent research it appears that it is still the same (see articles above this post). The research excerpt originally posted was from 1977 and they just pointed out that it has been known for 100 years that many cancer patients were alkaline. Thus the title “rediscovering an old finding”.

DP If you all want to understand cancer better I suggest you read Susane Somers book Knockout few times. It’s very good book. She is talking to I believe 12 doctors that cured cancers. I just want to point out one thing. We have genes that protect us from cancer, and they can be turned on and off by various factors. Toxins turn them off, detox and going back in homeostasis will turn them back on. Looks like lots of people are walking around now without cancer protection, and they don’t know  about it. Even they never mentioned Ionized water,, knowing the ionized water properties I stop reading so many times thinking what a powerful anti cancer weapon we have, because they did mention detox, alkalinity, antioxidants, hydration, oxidative stress, inflammation and other fun things.

MW …please excuse me for asking this, but does cellular voltage play a part in this and if so how and where ??

Nathanial Darnell On a serious note, we can debate the scientific minutiae until the cows come home. Is it really worth it to get hot tempered over differences in opinion or changes in understanding due to scientific progress? What happened to being grateful? Very few people in the world even know about ERW and H2 and the extraordinary health benefits afforded by them. Overzealous marketers have certainly distorted the science, but they are not alone. Credentialled, yet intellectually myopic healthcare professionals have done just as much damage. I am thankful that my family and I have access to this technology and thankful to be part of this group. Let’s all find ways to work together.

RS MW, cellular voltage potential results from a difference in ion concentrations from one side of the cell membrane to the other (intra & extracellular). The inside is typically negative relative to the outside. Here is an interesting reference on utilizing the cell membrane potential to detect and even treat cancer: http://whyfry.org/science-transmembrane-voltage…/

Science: Transmembrane Voltage Potential is an Essential Cellular…
Levin notes, “We’ve shown that electric events tell the…
WHYFRY.ORG

MW, you will sometimes hear it said that since hydrogen water has a “negative charge” (not true), we can promote a negative cell membrane potential and prevent cancer by drinking this “negatively-charged water” (also not true). The negative voltage reading of H2 water measures the presence of dissolved hydrogen gas, not a “charge” in the water.

ML Blood alkalinity?

Tyler LeBaron  ML, yes that says blood alkalinity, which helps people see that not all cancer patients have acidic blood. Although most (if not all) cancerous tissues are very alkaline that is because they remove the acid from inside the cells into the blood. This can make some cancer patients slightly acidic with very alkaline tissues. Here are a couple review articles (the first is from a very prestigious journal) that discuss how cancer cells work to alkalize themselves so that they can be protected and spread. The story is much much bigger then these few articles and I don’t want to be misunderstand, misquoted or otherwise misinterpreted.

http://www.nature.com/nrc/journal/v11/n9/full/nrc3110.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/…/pii/S0304419X05000259
http://www.sciencedirect.com/…/pii/S0306987709007841
Access : Dysregulated pH: a perfect storm for cancer progression : Nature Reviews…
Take survey Remove message To read this article in…
NATURE.COM


Peggy Parker 
My training in European Biological Medicine trained me to look at the pH levels of blood, urine and saliva in order to see the relationships. When blood pH trends too alkaline or too acidic it warrants further investigation to rule cancer in or out. This system of medicine is based on the same “old” info as cited in the article. Again, the goal is to return all cells and all tissues back to their proper pH. Please remember that we do not want to “alkalinize” the body, we want to restore homeostasis.

ML I’ve never heard anyone refer to cancer patients as having ‘acidic’ blood.
They always talk about acidic urine, indicating that the body is trying to buffer the blood and the excess acid is coming out in the urine. Also, my pH strips say that someone with a urine pH of 4.5 will show 8.0 on the urine test, which they call a ‘false positive’ – then proceeds to explain the chemistry behind it. Now, someone who tests as ‘too alkaline’ is actually dangerously acidic. Excess acidity being related to cancer correlates to the findings of The China Study, incidentally.

It’s virtually impossible for anyone to be too alkaline. I’m referring to urine pH. I went 100% raw, just fruits and veggies, with lots of ERW, and the highest my urine ever got was 7.5. It stayed there consistently. I know of lots of raw vegans who did the same with fresh juices (not necessarily the water) and they never got above 7.5 either. It is inconceivable that a meat-eater could get too alkaline. Common sense indicates to me that the pH strips insert is right, and what people think is ‘too alkaline’ is actually a chemical reaction to being dangerously acidic.

“If they have cancer, they were ALREADY too acidic, THEN they switched water and/or diet.”

I’ll leave it up to you scientists to figure out the chemistry of it, but being the layperson I am, I don’t accept that someone with cancer could possibly be ‘too alkaline’ from a healthy, alkalizing diet and high quality ERW. In the first place, the only people on a raw vegan diet are those who were already sick; they do the diet in an attempt to heal. So it cannot be said that the diet caused their cancer. Same with those who invest $4k in a machine – most do that because they’re sick. If they have cancer, they were ALREADY too acidic, THEN they switched water and/or diet.
Whatever happens to their chemistry at that point is a result of rapid change and rapid detox, most likely. Correlation doesn’t necessarily equal causation.

 Peggy Parker ML, it’s really important to remember a few things:

1) urine pH is dramatically and quickly influenced by the last thing you ate or drank. That’s why a 12 hour fast is so important.
2) pH strips are somewhat unreliable – your statement regarding false positives are a good example.
3) Different forms of cancer have different pH readings inside the cell as well as in the fluids they excrete.
4) Cancer treatment is somewhat complicated.

Here is an example: Mistletoe preparations are a very effective treatment for cancer. In fact many forms of chemo are synthetic forms of mistletoe preparations. However, mistletoe grows on a number of different trees and each type treats a different form of cancer. Mistletoe treatments are based in anthropomorphic medicine.

MM: I think one way to look at this is to say that cancer is impacted by disruptions in the body’s pH homeostasis. CAUSE of these disruptions probably vary tremendously. This research seems relevant to targeting cancer therapy … and should knock some sense into those of us who are interested in science and speaking accurately about hydrogen water.

The China Study? Where was there a correlation of excess acidity? Please give specific reference.

MM: Peggy, thanks for the clarity you posted on blood pH. As we all should know by now, the healthy body maintains blood pH in a tight range. If it is outside that range either high or low, something is way off. I appreciate that you are trained in the evaluation of the 3 pH measurements as I have never trusted anyone who said to just measure saliva or urine pH. The whole picture emerges only when you know all 3 numbers.

ML  MM, I’m not sure if The China Study specifically addressed pH, but it is known that animal ‘foods’ [sic] have an acidifying effect, whereas plant foods have an alkalizing effect. My point was simply that it makes sense that the ‘foods’ known to increase risk for cancer (from animal origin) are also acidifying, and the foods known to decrease risk of cancer (plant-based) are alkalizing. As a layperson, it seems to me that the scientists are going about this all wrong. Rather than looking at the pH of cancer cells, which show only the end result and might be the result of chemical reactions, but might not show actual causation, it makes more sense to do what the alternative doctors and the researchers of the study did – look at diet and lifestyle of those who get cancer.

AA:I have always quoted one Dr (reputable, known by many ERW drinkers) who has stated it’s virtually impossible for almost ALL people to be/get too alkaline.I always believed his inference was to those of not eating (and of course “drinking” -HA !) A 100 % alkaline diet 100% of the time.also, he was not speaking of the tissue /cells of cancer patients specifically either.

ML: I got even better health benefits than before, when I went 100% raw vegan (instead of just veg which I’ve been for many years). I did it for 6 weeks and checked my pH several times per day, and it was consistently 7.5, even with first morning’s urine. That was with a lot of green, fruits, veggies, and over a gallon of water which was about 10.0 – 10.5, almost always fresh from the machine since I’m home most of the time. I was also consuming green superfoods (chlorella, bluegreen algae), to boot.
Can’t get any more alkaline than that! As far as diet and water, I actually just started again because the benefits were so amazing. If ever someone would get ‘too’ alkaline, that was it!

I would agree with the doctor, especially in the case of meat-eaters. I don’t see how it would be possible for a meat-eater to get too alkaline. My pH dropped half a point just by eating cooked vegan, and a whole point if I ate cheese (years ago). And that wasn’t even including meat. Granted, I am only a single anecdote, but fwiw, we know that fruits+veggies=health, so common sense dictates that cancer would be more likely to thrive in a diet that lacks those antioxidant-rich, alkalizing plant foods (ie. an acidifying diet).

Peggy Parker: One of the causes behind an overly alkaline blood pH is as the result of the body attempting to correct an overly acid blood pH.
ML, some bodies function much better with animal protein than without. While incomplete and imprecise in its recommendations, the book Eat Right For Your Blood Type, contains general information regarding the types of foods more easily digested and assimilated by folks with different blood types.
Traditional Chinese Medicine prescribes diets based on constitutional types (hot, cold, damp, dry, etc), while Ayurvedic practitioners prescribe based on doshas (Vata, Pitta, Kapha). In all disciplines outside our current medical system, people are considered individuals for whom 1 diet does not fit all.

As a personal example, I had cancer in my small intestine in 1999. That summer I followed a raw diet (combined with a lot of other therapies) and by the end of the summer I was cancer free. I continued to eat an 85% raw diet into the fall and winter. I became quite ill and while visiting my Japanese Acupuncturist she informed me that because I already have a cold and damp constitution and I was eating cooling and damp foods during cold seasons, I had created a burden for my kidneys. I changed my diet and was better in just 10 days. Now I eat seasonally – lots of raw in the summer and lots of warm cooked foods in the winter. This is just one of the things to keep in mind regarding personalized treatments for any health issue.

ML: Peggy Parker Exactly!!! That’s what I was trying to say but I didn’t know the chemistry of it.
I agree 100% that taking one’s constitution into consideration, as well as the season, is very important. Personally I consider myself a ‘seasonal high raw’ vegan – I do best on all raw for 9 months out of the year (I live in Texas) and warming, cooked vegan for the 3 months or so that it’s cold. Even the leading raw vegan guru – Dr. Gabriel Cousens – acknowledges that constitution and metabolic type must be taken into consideration. But, his extensive clinical experience has yielded a near-100% success rate with people who had trouble being vegan but wanted to be vegan. He has figured out how to make the vegan diet – even high-raw vegan – work for virtually everyone. I highly recommend listening to his ‘debate’ (more of a polite discussion actually) with the top Paleo guru – Dr. Mercola. Dr. Cousens totally outclassed Mercola with his superior command of the research and clinical experience. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9As-uy1V13Q

Dr. Mercola’s Discussion with Dr. Gabriel Cousens pt 1
http://www.mercola.com/Internationally renowned…
YOUTUBE.COM

ML: Having said that, however, I respectfully disagree about the blood type diet. That is very trendy right now, but it’s entirely theoretical. However, Standard Process, who sells animal-based supplements, offers ‘continuing education’ seminars for chiropractors, naturopaths, homeopaths and other alternative practitioners, and they have single-handedly convinced many of those practitioners that fruit is evil and high-meat, high-fat Paleo is the way to go. It’s now trendy for alternative practitioners to say vegan is bad and that people need meat. IMHO that is absolute rubbish and totally based on money. But my opinion means nothing. Listen to what Dr. Cousens has to say about it! Incidentally, he is type O and thrives on a raw vegan diet. He does explain the factors that come into play with metabolic typing, but blood type isn’t one of them. I highly recommend listening to the whole discussion – it’s quite deep and has a lot of great info.

MM:There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a high fat diet, Monica. Right, Ian Blair Hamilton? But that’s not the point of this group. We can argue this until we all die of old age … and there is more opinion, pseudoscience, and BS in the diet realm than there is in the alkaline ionized water realm. Many of you who have commented are confusing one important thing – that the alkalinity of ionized water somehow is changing the alkalinity of the blood and tissues. I think Tyler might have something to say about the level of scientific proof that exists for that belief. When he is talking about tissue pH, it really has nothing to do with alkaline water.

Ian Blair Hamilton I was a vegetarian for 14 years. I drank ERW all that time and lived as alkaline as possible. I have ‘severe’ osteo as a result. I have converted to high fat paleo, supplementing with K2 and my bones are slowly retuning to strength (Dexascan annually) The China study has been soundly debunked. Horses for courses.

ML: Vegetarian or vegan?

Ian Blair Hamilton: Vegetarian

ML: No, it hasn’t been ‘soundly’ debunked. I don’t consider Mercola a good source and that’s the only ‘debunking’ I’ve heard of. Mercola has a vested interest in acidic diets and in fact bashed ERW remember.
Ah, well, eggs and dairy are just as acidifying as meat.

ML:
I’m just voicing my opinion, adding to the conversation. But you did make a rather strong statement, saying that your vegetarian diet caused your osteo. I strongly disagree that a high-fat, meat-based diet is healthy, so yes, I was questioning your conclusions. Also that is a very broad, sweeping conclusion…to suggest that the lack of meat could cause xyz imbalance, when your diet contained high-fat animal protein anyway…wasn’t even vegan! Plus, I stand by my assertion that not all ERW is equal. I wonder if the lower quality ERW may have contributed to your problems. That’s what happened to me, when I had a lesser machine before. So I’m not challenging, but questioning.

WN: People are all different. One diet may not be right for everybody.

ML: WN I agree, to a point. What I really like about Dr. Cousens is that his many years of clinical experience working with thousands of people has shown that people do have different metabolic types, and do require different diets, BUT no one – no one! – actually needs animal ‘foods’ and any metabolic type can thrive on a vegan diet if they choose it. They just need a different type of vegan diet, but they can still be vegan. He has worked with many people who wanted to be vegan but didn’t thrive, and were craving meat. With his dietary modifications, they were able to completely eliminate those cravings and did quite well. I find this extremely important for anyone who has tried a vegetarian or vegan diet in the past and didn’t do well with it.
Ian Blair Hamilton Iow I am questioning whether your osteo was a result of not eating meat. That makes no sense. However still having dairy in your diet or lesser quality ERW, either of which could cause it, makes more sense to me. Correlation doesn’t necessarily = causation. I invite you to watch Forks Over Knives. Very compelling! and the MDs show the science behind it so you’ll like that. Peggy Parker I extend this invitation to you as well. http://www.forksoverknives.com/

Tyler LeBaron 
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html
What Dr. Campbell Won’t Tell You About the China Study
Famous vegetarian T. Colin Campbell’s new book The…
CHOLESTEROL-AND-HEALTH.COM

ML: There will always be strong criticism from those who have a vested interest in the highly profitable meat industry and its accompanying drug industry. And there is more disagreement on diet than probably anything else. We must all cross-reference and decide for ourselves. As a vegetarian of 33 years, it seems clear to me that the planet cannot sustain a meat-based diet much longer, so the time may soon come that people have no choice but to adopt a plant-based diet. Getting back to the OP, thousands of testimonials abound of people healing their cancer by switching to a plant-based diet. I’ve never heard of anyone healing their cancer by switching to a heavy meat diet!

ML:Tyler LeBaron I just clicked on your link and the 2nd sentence jumped out: ‘Denise Minger’s excellent critique’. Seriously?? I’m surprised that anyone with a science or medical background could possibly take Denise Minger’s critique seriously. Here is Dr. Campbell’s complete response to Denise Minger and any other critics. Yes, a WHOLE book is his response! Not a short page but a WHOLE book! http://www.amazon.com/Whole…/dp/B00APDFVLU/ref=sr_1_1…
Whole: Rethinking the Science of Nutrition
New York Times BestsellerWhat happens when you eat…

Tyler LeBaron AquaSciences I didn’t read the whole thing ML, but your posts are very one sided and biased, and so I was showing the other side…

ML: I just ordered it myself but I’m told it has a lot more depth about the research process itself, and is a direct response to the critics. Whereas The China Study presented a summary of the results, WHOLE delves deeply into the scientific process. Regardless of what you now think about diet, it should be a good read for anyone with a science or medical background! From a review: ”America’s premier nutritionist, T. Colin Campbell, with courage and conviction, articulates how the self-serving reductionist paradigm permeates science, medicine, media, big pharma and philanthropic groups blocking the public from the nutritional truth for optimal health.” –Caldwell Esselstyn, Jr., MD, author of the bestselling Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease

Peggy Parker Every diet fad out there worked for somebody, that’s how it got popular. Even the health gurus that lead people and help hundreds of people get well, cannot help everyone. That’s because a diet that works for someone does not work for everyone. Everyone is unique, has a different combination of constitutional types and therefore has to figure out what works for them. According to Ayurvedic and TCM that changes as we move through different life phases. So what works for you in your 30’s may not in your 50’s.

ML: Tyler LeBaron AquaSciences If you think I’m biased against eating animals, I readily admit that. But for good reason. I’m biased in favor of drinking high quality ERW too, also for good reason!

BR: What starts with an idea, can be dissected into sides and other parts. As we all step in to express our experience, we speak from the store of experience. I always like to suggest we try riding the same roller coaster for a few minutes and see if that will create a better understanding of how far we differ having the same experience

ML: Peggy Parker I agree with the gist of what you’re saying. But you’re not implying that a plant-based diet is a fad, are you? Plant based is a huge category and there are many variations within it, which can accommodate different metabolic types. This is why I so strongly urge you to check out Dr. Cousens – he agrees on this point and has abundant clinical evidence showing how different metabolic typing works. I think you’d really like the work that he has done.

Peggy Parker Since I’ve been in the field of natural medicine for some time now, of course I have checked him out and have great respect for his work. I used to have a medical spa in N Idaho for many years. I had folks juice fast for up to 8 weeks at a time in order to give their digestion a break. But at the end of 8 weeks I began to get diminishing returns. One of my daughters is a vegan and it works great for her (A blood type, A blood subtype). I ate what my patients ate so ate a mostly vegan diet for several years and it did not serve me well. I’m not for or against any diet that works well for anyone. I simply think that any diet that excludes entire food groups will not work for everyone.

For those of you who did not know, Dr. D’Adamo Senior, who actually did the research and designed the diets (Eat Right For Your Type) based his findings on blood sub-types not types. Since it’s hard to find a lab that does sub-types his son generalized to types. D’Adamo Senior also took into consideration the combination of the type and sub-type to customize a diet. I am Type O with Sub-type A. According to this combo, my ideal diet contains lots of vegetables, some animal protein, no or few grains and only moderate fat. That diet actually works very well for me – that is when I actually stick to it!!

ML: Peggy Parker You know how much I respect you. I’m not disputing what you’re saying. My point is that Dr. Cousens has taken diet to a whole new level. He agrees with you that there are different types, but he has found a way for anyone, of any type, to be vegan if they wish. There are many reasons to be vegan, and it’s a huge thing to find a way to make it work for everyone!

Peggy Parker I do not believe it ever will work for everyone. It will work for some, and maybe even many, but nothing ever works for everyone.

ML: Incidentally, Dr. Cousens is type O, which supposedly needs animal protein, yet he does very well on his modified raw vegan diet. The guy absolutely glows! haha. My husband is also a type O. He was mostly vegetarian, eating meat only about once a week, for many years. Then he went vegan and did have some problems. So he went back to meat for awhile but that didn’t solve his problems at all. Then he switched to an ‘extreme’ form for veganism – Raw Til 4 version of 80/10/10 – and WOW his problems resolved immediately and he is now thriving more than he ever has before! Sometimes it’s not a simple matter of ‘vegan vs meat’ but of adjusting the type of vegan foods, calories, etc.

Turns out that my hubby simply wasn’t getting enough calories the first time he tried vegan. Of course, this is anecdotal (as are the stories of everyone sharing here) but what’s important to note is that I was actually encouraging him to go back to meat when he was having problems. I was willing to set ideology aside, because it obviously wasn’t working for him. But the meat diet did NOT help him! In fact 15 years ago when I had all those serious problems I too went back to meat, for several years, and it did NOT help me either! So I went back to vegan, and it was ERW that resolved my issues. Anyway, he is type O and thriving on high-raw vegan 80/10/10!

Peggy Parker Again, some diets work well – even extremely well – for some and not others. There are so many individual factors to take into consideration.

ML: Peggy Parker I agree that it won’t work for everyone, but only because not everyone wants to go vegan. Respectfully, I am trying to convey that yes it does work for everyone, but with the caveat that they must WANT to be vegan. Not everyone wants to be vegan! So obviously it wouldn’t work for them if they don’t want to do it. I stated previously ‘those who want to be vegan.’ He has gotten virtually 100% success with people who thought they couldn’t be vegan but wanted to for health, ethical, environmental or spiritual reasons, Provided they wanted to, yes it did work. I encourage you to listen to the discussion between him and Dr. Mercola. You can hear both sides from 2 of the most highly respected doctors in their fields. (Personally I have zero respect for Mercola, but he is highly respected by others.) It will be well worth your time!So we agree it won’t work for everyone…but the point is that Dr. Cousens states it will work for everyone who wants to be vegan but had trouble with it.

ML: Yes, that’s what I’m saying – he takes individual factors into consideration and it works! within the vegan diet, there is variation to make it work!

BR: An Idea (?)…Since there are over 90 different nutrients available to work with, this can produce a wide variety of OVER or UNDER saturation of either good or mal-synthesis operating through the human organism. With the millions of ways we can become de…See More

ML: 
Tyler LeBaron, I read that critique. It’s understandable, given that it’s based on The China Study, which was a summarized book meant to appeal to the mainstream. I invite you to read WHOLE and see if it addresses those critiques. As I said, I haven’t gotten my copy yet, but others who read it say that the science is meticulously presented and should address all the critiques of his earlier work.

ALJ: I’ve heard that the blood has a very narrow tolerance for change in the pH. It a person gets their BLOOD outside that range, then it means death. The good thing is that God made our bodies to adjust to the amount of acid or alkaline that we consume so that our blood will not change. It is nearly impossible to change the blood pH. Is this correct Peggy Parker?

Peggy Parker Very small changes in the pH of the blood have quite dramatic effects. So a well functioning body will do anything it can to maintain these pH ranges. However, a body that is poorly functioning will have pH ranges on the outer limits of the ranges and that is not ideal. Then if anything pushes these limits even a little the resulting changes can be catastrophic.

Ian Blair Hamilton Denise Minger has gained a following because she is a ruthlessly exhaustive researcher and questioner of dominant paradigms, willing to apply scientific rigor where even established scientists fear. She is also an ex vegan whose health failed so dramatically that she began her quest for the truth. And guess what her critics say? “She wasn’t doing vegan right”. Sound familiar, ML?

BR: That does sound familiar Ian Blair Hamilton. Many do it wrong and believe it failed and they need animal products. There are examples of those who do it right and enjoy good health

ML Ian Blair Hamilton Yes, it does sound familiar, because it’s true. As I’ve said about 5 times now, not everyone thrives on the same type of vegan diet, just as not everyone thrives on the same type of meat-based diet. It seems that all of you are lumpi…See More

Obviously, there is an epidemic of heart disease, cancer, stroke, obesity, diabetes and other diseases among meat-eaters. Would you then single out 1 of those meat-eaters with cancer or diabetes and say “including meat in their diet didn’t work for the…See More

There is NO single ‘right’ way to do a vegan diet. Some do better with high carbs/low fat/low protein while others do better with lower carbs/higher fat/higher protein. Whenever someone says they didn’t thrive on a vegan diet, they automatically assume it’s because they need meat. Not so. It’s more likely that they either 1. simply didn’t eat enough calories or 2. ate the wrong type of vegan diet for their constitution. or 3. neglected to take B12, which is the only nutrient that must be supplemented. (This is because we no longer eat dirty food. We can synthesize our own B12 just as animals do, but the bacteria needed to do that are found in dirt.)

MM: ML, let others do what works for them … there’s as much evidence for other paths as the one you have chosen. I’ve done the raw vegan, it does not work for me. Paleo works for me. I’ll ride that horse, thank you very much.

Peggy Parker Now I couldn’t thrive on the native Eskimo diet but they wouldn’t thrive on a raw vegan diet either. I know that’s an extreme example but I’m simply pointing it out to once again say let’s just agree that a one size fits all diet is not going to work for everyone and that no matter which path you choose it should be done with the highest integrity. Lastly all this talk about diets, while lively and interesting, is off the original topic.

Tyler LeBaronJust so that I know we are talking about the same guy, Is this Dr. Cousens the same homeopath that was sued for giving bovine adrenal fluid injections for fatigue, which resulted in the patient’s death due to gas gangrene?

Peggy Parker
Yes it is although I do know Bruce Shelton and so I would tend to be a little lenient on Cousens in this instance. Not sure all the facts were in evidence. It’s not uncommon for traditional physicians to do any and everything they can to besmirch a holistic practitioner. Been under that kind of thing more than once!

Tyler LeBaron AquaSciences okay just wondering. Thanks

ML: Actually, if you listen to the discussion with Mercola, you will see that he doesn’t even tell everyone to go vegan. Definitely NOT a 1-size-fits-all approach! Which is all the more reason to listen to what he has to say. Again, the distinction here is “those who WANT to go vegan, CAN by adjusting their diet according to their constitution/metabolic typing. It can be done with a plant-based diet.” I don’t know why some of you seem to still think I’m advocating a 1-size-fits-all. I don’t know how much clearer I can make it.

Last one: This is a quote from a friend about this topic. (the ‘Ian’ he references is a different Ian.) quote “It’s more than a good read. I’d call it essential for anyone wanting to get some real authentic science about the health of vegan diets from a source, rather than from the usual highly emotionally charged, and not always right sources one finds on the internet. Campbell is perhaps one of the most important nutritional biochemists of the 20th century, and his work has been groundbreaking, well done, well verified, and worth understanding. The book, not surprisingly, got some criticism from those who don’t like or want to hear the message. Some based on a perceived lack of supporting details in China Study (What do you expect, the original china study alone (only one research study in the book) was over 900 pages, so there were bound to be areas left without some of the background or supporting data.). So also, after reading China Study, take the time to also read his most recent, “Whole”. It picks up where China Study leaves off, answering much of the criticism, and also going extensively into the nature of science and how it fits into societies models for it (including support and funding), and how that tends to shape and skew what ends up getting presented to the public. Between the two, for my money, you can’t hope to fully understand the topic of health and a plant based diet, or the science of nutrition, without reading these two books by one of the giants in the field. Then, after reading these two, read them again.

WN: I got busy reading this thread and almost forgot about the meat on the grill!

MM: I find myself agreeing with Peggy all the way. Knowing a little bit about Metabolic Typing, I have to say that a raw vegan diet does NOT work for everyone. We are far too complex and individual for ANY diet to work for everyone. And I think the critiqu…See More

Ian Blair Hamilton Agree totally MM..

MM: Ready for a grass fed organic steak right about now.

ML: I completely respect that many people have tried some variation of the vegan diet and it didn’t work for them. My own husband was one of those people until he discovered 80/10/10. So obviously I would never ridicule or judge anyone for earnestly believing they need to eat meat. It is this gloating, this flaunting that I don’t understand.

WN: ML, in my defense I will tell you that I eat most anything that grows out of the ground raw. Just like the animals I eat do! But rather than lump all meat together, I think the virtues of game meat over slaughtered store bought meat should be observed. That’s the main reason I hunt, in addition to the admiration I have for the large game species. They are magnificent creatures!

MM: … That argument could go on forever in the same vein never proving anything. As I have learned in my Landmark courses and seminars, Arrogance is believing that the way YOU believe the world is, IS the way the world is. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen such a clear example of that concept.


Ian: If you’ve got this far you will see that there are as many opinions about diet, cancer and alkalizing as there are stars in the sky.
The choice to alkalize has to come from your own education.
I strongly suggest you spend some time in our Learning Centre here.